Some General Rules for Spotting a Scam Publisher

I got this via a myspace friend who posted it up in my Horror Writers Group, but it's good knowledge for anyone wanting to get published through traditional means to have. It originally comes from the website of Preditors and Editors.

Openly advertises for writers in print or online publications or both.

The publisher claims that it’s seeking to publish first-time authors.

Openly claims that it’s not a vanity or subsidy publisher.

Claims that it has a new business model that will bring success, but never explains why successful publishers aren’t utilizing it.

Claims that the established publishers and published writers are trying to block new writers from being published.

The publisher gives no or very low advances for books it buys. When it claims to have given higher advances, it never reveals the names of the authors who received those higher advances so the publisher’s claim can be verified.

The publisher’s books are rarely in any bookstores, particularly the large chain stores that carry books from just about all reputable commercial publishers.

The publisher’s books have never been seen on a bestseller list published by a reputable source such as the New York Times, especially when said publisher claims to be large.

The publisher’s books rarely sell more than 5,000 books to readers in individual purchases and more often fail to reach that number with most of their books in the double-digits or low triple digits in sales.

The publisher refuses to release even approximate sales figures for its own bestsellers.

When confronted with very low or non-existent sales, the publisher refuses to release the book from contract.

Books it claims to have published were actually published by another publisher, now defunct, that used the same business name.

Its contracts contain provisions that prohibit complaints by its authors about its service and product.

Postings in online forums never seem to include anyone who was rejected.

Online forum criticism is frequently immediately responded to by a defender of that publisher.

Acceptances usually take place in less than a month. Even less than a week is not unusual.

Acceptance letters tend to be identical when compared with what other authors received.

Contract provisions are specific as to how termination can be invoked, but the publisher disdains using anything other than some other method of communication.

Communications from the publisher are frequently unsigned by any individual using a department address so that no one can be pinned down as responsible for any comments made to the author.

The publisher never gives a direct answer to any direct questions. Instead, the publisher points to others who are satisfied with policy, procedures, contract, or sales as proof that everything is fine.

The publisher has a no return policy on its products.

The publisher regularly offers special discounts to its authors so they can self-purchase their own books in bulk quantities to resell but fails to offer regular discounts to the buying public.

The publisher threatens to blacklist its authors within the industry should they mention leaving.

The publisher points out to authors that it’s a member of its local BBB. (The BBB is for consumers. Authors are considered businesses.)

The publisher doesn’t offer its own editing services.

The publisher states the author doesn’t have to buy books and sell them, but with their business model it’s more profitable for the author to do so.

The publisher places its writers’ books on self-publishing sites though the publisher claimed it offered a "traditional" contract.

The publishers claims to be a traditional publisher but your ISBN won’t be registered until you’ve sold some quantity of books.

Hydra, this sounds like another diatribe against companies like PublishAmerica. Most of your points are 'scare tactic' innuendoes (I will speak to a few below). The established publishers do not like them, but they are viable ways of getting things published. I had two books published through PublishAmerica, and I don't regret using the service. Am I going to do it again? No. It was a step up, but I feel ready to advance my status another step.

I like your first two. If you are new writer, especially a novelist such as myself, you are NOT going to get published. Yeah, it happens, but people win the lottery as well. What chance do YOU have to win that lottery, basically none. I made the right decision having a couple of manuscripts put to print, as it has upped my status.

Those points of yours that spoke to advances and royalties are meaningless. What they cloud is the poor method that established publishers pay their writers. That 'advance' is a loan against future sells of your books, which means that any money your book actually made goes to -
1) Paying your advance
2) Paying interest on your advance
3) Paying fees on your advance (like that 'free' editor service)

Now, some points are distracting. My books are not in bookstores. The reason is NOT the quality of my publisher. The reason is that the big established publishers have BOUGHT the shelf space in the bookstores. They are spending money to keep my books and other small presses (many quality book publishers) from reaching the public. I have bought many 'real' books from 'real' authors that got 'real' advances by having to place special orders, JUST LIKE ONE NEEDS TO DO TO GET MY BOOKS.

Now, there are a number of other considerations about how to get a manuscript published. You should consider your own goals. You should consider your own initiative to promote yourself. A lot of books by 'established' publishers fail (check the discount bins). A number of independent books have succeeded. My own books did not make any Top-10 lists, but I consider that I broke even with them paying for conventions, travel, meals, and such. I wish all other independents to have at least as much success.

First, your point about bookstores is by and large valid. They tend to only want to do business with the well established publisher. Money is the main reason for this, but all the same if a publisher's books aren't in the stores it MIGHT be a sign that they aren't all they are claiming to be. I recently in fact had a friend move from a small publishing company she had been working with to a self-publishing company because the company had told her repeatedly that her books were going to be in bookstores but were truly only accessible online. It would have saved her a lot of time and trouble if she'd sought out some of their books at the store before signing her contract with them.

Second, I got to tell you, you are the ONLY person I've ever spoken to that has gone through Publish American that had anything positive to say about them. And these aren't folks who are against self/vanity publishing. Some of them in fact in the next breath suggest I or others go through Lulu or iUniverse instead, but by no means ever consider using Publish America. I don't know why your experience was so different, but if you were happy with them great. Personal, from my own research into self/vanity publisher for the publishing of my own series of books, I'd suggest Lulu.com, but really it's up to everyone to do their own research and pick what's best for them.

The truth though is there are a lot of "traditional" publishers out there that aren't honest about what they can/will do for the author. They aren't honest about how much money the author is going to make and encourage them to take on debt they need not take. And I took these "rules" more or less as signs that you might be dealing with dishonest publisher and no single one of them should be a deal breaker or means a publisher is a scam.

Lulu is just a printer. I thought of Lulu when I decided to print out some of my rule books for my RPG, but found that my local Kinkos could do the same. If you are using Lulu to print books to sell in the usual method, you better know what you are doing.

PublishAmerica is actually a publisher. There is no charge, and they do good work. No, they don't promote or encourage sales (something even I find surprising), but they deliver a good product with proper bar codes that can be sold in all the usual methods including Amazon.

Instead of Lulu, there are a number of self-publishers: AuthorHouse, Xilibris, Metier, etc. These are about the same as PublishAmerica, BUT YOU PAY FOR THEIR SERVICES. Worse, you pay to have your book printed (published), then they want more money to advertise your books. Those places are rip-offs. PublishAmerica does not rip you off, as their service is free, but you just get what you pay for (and if you are going to pay for special advertising, well, at least you are not already behind).

Lulu books have bar codes, in fact if you're creating your own wrap around cover you have to format it so there is a black space for one to be put in. But that's only if you want to take advantage of their offer to put your book up on Amazon for free. You also get a free ISBN if you choose the "publish by Lulu" option. If you want to have the ISBN registered to your name or "company" name it'll cost you somewhere around $100. The big down side is they offer no editing or formatting services, paying or otherwise. All that is on you.

Okay, I guess that Lulu is advancing its options. No problem.

Truthfully, as I state in my critiques, I believe authors should take the responsibility for editing (read it, read it, then read it again many more times). PublishAmerica does offer an editing service, but it does little more than scan the manuscript for basic errors. Even so, gad, the garbage that they would print. That is the worse about PublishAmerica, they really have no standards. My books are relatively clean (TerishD pats himself on the back), but most other PublishAmerica books that I read were horrible. Now, the major publishers do their own editing, but their books are still far from perfect. They however uphold the Microsoft standard: not so bad that people will switch to something else.

As for formatting, that is not a problem. Your basic word processors do that very well. The only problem that I had with my rule book, which had a lot of tables, was some issues when I reduced the font to save page length (right before taking to Kinkos, so I had not fully checked). When I go back to print a final draft on my rule books, my players have demanded a table of contents and index. The word processor will handle that as well.

Still, the publishing world is a grand theater with many venues. While everyone wants to play the big time, the local stages have their place. If you honestly look at your goals, that path through the sewers might be the best to get you where you are going.

Lulu has no standards either. I think they have some sort of legal disclaimer about promoting illegal acts and of course copyrighted material not owned by the person doing the publishing, but basically they will publish anything.

I like the idea of having a second set of eyes on things to give me opinions and insight into things I might not see or have thought of. So, I'll hire a freelance editor for each of my books, but other then that I agree with you that what is needed most is for the writer to read their work. I've had a couple of friends ask me to give their work a rough edit and I've by and large been absolute shocked by the errors and oversights I've found.

Formatting, like you said isn't really a big deal. Plus, I took some graphic art and printing classes when I was in school. So, formatting pages and a cover isn't exactly brand new to me.

So, Lulu works just fine for me rather others see it as a sewer or not. I've personally always found it more then a little odd the way so many writers seem to push the idea that there is only one right way to go about publishing or that everyone who is "serious" about their writing should share their goal to land a deal with one of the big publishing houses. I've had so many people say things to me like, "people who self-publish are just too lazy or too scared of rejection to do the legwork of submitting to real publishers" or my favorite, "if you want to be taken seriously by people in the industry you won't self-publish." Well, of course the people in the "industry" are going to discourage writers from doing it themselves. They make their money off of things being done the way they've always been done.

Like you said you got to look at your own goals and choose the best path for you. If that means going that traditional route, great. If it means self-publishing or some other non-traditional method, equally great. But know as much about what you are getting into as possible.

Oh, to anyone that cares to know -

The 'proper' way to be published is thus:

1) Write short stories. Start with stories less than 3,000 words. Make certain that YOU edit. Submit them to magazines. Make certain that YOU read their guidelines (or your story is going to be rejected without reading). Keep submitting until you are accepted.

2) Keep writing short stories. Keep editing and following the guidelines of each magazine. Slowly, you can add length.

3) Once your name is established, THEN you can write a novel with a hope of having it accepted.

My problem with this method is that I see too much in my characters and story to boil it down (I also have too much fun writing the novel). Also, what novels I read are basically sttrrreeeetttttccccccchhhhhhh short stories. Yes, you can speed read those things without missing anything (which, I believe, is what the industry wants, as they want to sell MANY books, not sell good books).

I liked most of what you said Hydra and Trish.

I suppose at the end of the day, everyone will want to approach getting published their own way.

(the goblin like HydraMStar, and thinks she's a credit to this site too)

and then, as if to spoil it, the goblin turned up with a largish bag of 2cents coins, the contents of which he promptly turned out onto the bistro table with the usual catastrophic results of coins rolling off in each and every direction, and everyone looking on with that smug "that'll teach you not to grab a few coins out of the bag each time goblin" look they write across their otherwise uniform faces, "...OK, they're all here now, but which one was it again..." the goblin mumbles placing his index finger on each coin in turn, and scratching it back into the bag at the edge of the fake marble table with a purposeful screeching sound, after reading them that is "..."don't go to them, let them come to you" no not that one, "the Internet is where the battle is from now" nah not that one either, "the persona is everything here" no no they're writers not brainy intellectuals, "the hitcount is ones readership" not sure I understand that one myself even, "live writing is far more exciting, free and challenging" agreed but no again, oh where is it..." the goblin continues until he comes across the one he was looking for marked "to post is to publish", "...funny, I thought there was more to it than that, what, do you mean to say that I have gone through this whole bag for that one little point, how silly I am then..." he voiced to himself until he saw the people on the other tables almost praying that he would now stop scratching those coins across the table, at which, of course, a wicked temptation now arose within the goblin as he then contemplated a recount, so he just looked across at the others with that sudden devious smile that only a true goblin could muster here, went "...MYAHAHAHAHAH...", and then placed all five fingers on those coins this time, oh he couldn't resist it, in fact, he could never resist himself he knew

fleamailman wrote:

the goblin continues until he comes across the one he was looking for marked "to post is to publish", "...funny, I thought there was more to it than that

Yes, fleamailman, you did catch the phrase. You see, the established publishers don't want you going outside their system. The problem is that a lot of writers were keeping their stuff to themselves either because they did not want to bother with teh system, or simply because they never got accepted. I fall into both categories, as there were periods where I tried to get published the proper way. I still have stuff from my early days of writing that I have not posted - including the story that I love the most.

The 'established' publishing industry does consider posting to the internet as publishing, but that is simply to discredit people undercutting their business (even as they use it to PROMOTE their own writers). I see the internet as such a temporary medium, that I don't consider it publishing (I have had sites hacked, wiped by hardware incidents, etc.). Because I have been posting to the internet for the last 8 years (by the end of April I will be in my ninth year), I have learned a lot about writing and come to know a large variety of people. I have no regrets posting any of my stories, although both stories that I am presently considering publishing have not been posted - because I know better.

Terish is 100% right. And to add to it, most traditional publisher will consider anything that has been posted on the web as previously published and usually not accept it for consideration or only pay for second print rights if they do. That's why I always cringe a little when I see some young writer post a story either here or on one of the other writers forums I belong to and state they want to go on to submit said work to a publisher after they've cleaned it up. And that is the sort of "misstep" I'd like to help people who do want to do it the traditional way avoid with these sorts of posts.

Now, is posting to the web equal to publishing? In a way. People have the ability to find and read your work. They can even share it with their online friends and family. But I just don't feel it has the same power as the printed word. Pretty much for the same reason Terish gave, it's a temporary medium at best. What is here today is easily and usually gone tomorrow. I've had many a poem and short story picked up by e-magazines that I couldn't show you a print screen of today and who's websites are no longer active. But I can go to my bookshelf and show you a copy of Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" that was printed in 1899, making it well over 100 years old. That book, along with the many others like it I own, can be passed on to my daughter or my future grandchild if she chooses to have them. That makes books and online posts very different in my opinion.

the goblin was finding this thread interesting now, somehow knowing that he could not reply to all the points mentioned in the previous posts, that is, in one post alone here, so he picked up on the main point, on that "to post is the publish" point mentioned before, to which simply the goblin felt that he now inter reacted with more readers across the Internet, who were themselves posters too, that is if he added up the 40 to 50 "last post" threads he was over with a total hitcount probably impossible to imagine here, than if he gone down some standard publishing way, and certainly the goblin had no grounds to believe that this Internet was some sort of passing fad, far from it, the Internet was, and is, by the day, growing, steadily eating into the medias, "...so tell me why then, now that you can inter react with everyone else here, why it is you feel that you, or anyone else for the matter, can accept ever going back a situation now where you won't be able to inter react like this, with everyone else, anymore, isn't it like saying "the telephone is dead", or "the telephone will die"..." mentioned the goblin here, adding "...so I see now that it isn't something like becoming a their "established writer" here anymore, it's becoming a recognizable persona on the Internet, something I call "an Internet self", leading to the other question "do you want to be remembered as the last of the old breed, or the first of the new..." but the goblin stopped, fearing that he was pushing his own view on others here, when really he was only explaining why he himself cared about writing, hence his being here, while knowing that it had to now be adapted to the Internet whose readers were unlikely to read long posts like this one, "...rats, I know I should have added a sexy picture at the bottom here..." remembered the goblin

One reason that I published was simply to show others one of my stories 'in total.' I write about 2,000 word installments, but they are each a part of a novel. While I try to keep each section interesting, there is still a 'larger picture' that drives certain sections. I thus published some novels just to enable me to allow others to see my writing as a 'whole' development and not as simply separate posts.

fleamailman wrote:

...leading to the other question "do you want to be remembered as the last of the old breed, or the first of the new..." ...

And I put forth the idea that if your writing is only online you won't be remembered at all... at least not past the point of the death of the websites you've posted on or the deaths of those who saw your posts.

As for myself, I'd rather be remember as a bred of my own then a follower of any one trend.

I do get your point though about the internet changing things, both in the way we publish and communicate with each other, some for the better some for the worse.